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Profanity and Christians (NSF…LFC)

03/03/2011

How’s that for a title? Let’s see Google start indexing that one and bringing the visitors to my blog. (New record recently, by the way…180+ visitors in one day!)

So, profanity and Christians. Or maybe swearing and Christians, as most Christians will agree that profanity, defined as profane words against God, is wrong (which comes across in contemporary talk as “Jesus Christ”, “Jesus H Christ”, “Goddamn it”, etc)(although the argument can be made that “God damn” is not taking the Lord’s name in vain). But I’m one of the (many, just not in America) Christians who doesn’t believe that swearing is inherently wrong, sinful, or demonstrating a lack of intelligence or vocabulary.

What prompted this blog post? This insightful article on another blog about Counting Cusswords.

So while most of us would agree about the inappropriateness of certain expletives, as well as biblical exhortations to mind our manners, inevitably, each of us must draw lines concerning what is and is not offensive. But who’s drawing them and where they’re drawn is another story…Anyway, it makes me wonder whether or not we’ve sorely missed the mark, whether or not we are straining at gnats and swallowing camels (Matt. 23:24). Instead of celebrating quality craftsmanship and engaging the world with our stories, we’ve become moral policemen, cruising the movie theater or book store, passing out citations for the most “asses,” “F-words” and cigarettes smoked.

I once heard a preacher open his sermon by saying, “The world is going to hell and most of you don’t give a damn.” After a pregnant, rather uncomfortable pause, he said, “And the problem is, most of you are more concerned I just said ‘damn,’ than that the world is going to hell.”

I wonder that the same applies to Christians in the arts.

Many have heard that story about the pastor before. By this point, having an opinion on swearing and profanity (I’ll use the terms interchangably) is like having an opinion about alcohol or going to movie theatres or pants on women…or whatever. I have listened to all the arguments, hopefully humbly, and am just not persuaded by most of them. I believe profanity has a place in a Christian’s life, is not something that should be ashamed of when used appropriately, and therefore not a sin in most cases, and most definitely not an indication of poor intelligence or vocabulary. Nor is it someone a mature person should run away from, or God forbid, try to regulate amongst those who don’t share your own personal convictions. (Maybe a hint of hypocrisy there with this blog post; I’m stating my opinion and position, persuasively, and not making it a law or issue to others.)

Ok, reasons.

1 – God judges the heart. It is not cute to substitute an ok Christianitized word for a swear word. If you have a pet saying or term that you use when you are upset or don’t like someone or an idea or whatever, that matters little to God; he sees it and judges it on the basis of the heart condition and not on the actual words being used. And that leads into…

2 – Words change with time, and words have meaning. The KJV uses “pisseth”, “bastard”, “asses”, and other terms that are now forbidden amongst Christians. As that link above alludes to, I was also told that words like “stupid” were on par with taking the Lord’s name in vain. Nonsense! Having children not call each other stupid is a great thing, sure, but please don’t bring capital T TRUTH and the WORD of GOD into the reasoning. (Leaders, quit lying to kids.) Take a term such as “motherfucker”, which was a gross insult when it was first used in America, but now has become a term of respect and endearment amongst some cultures; most of those people nowadays know you are not being insulting or deragatory one bit when using that term. And if God judges the heart, what then? I can call a Mexican coworker a “pendejo” and not be insulting at all, and they can call me whatever in return.

3 – There is a season for everything. And by this I mean, there are times and places where certain types of conversation and words are appropriate, and times and places where other types of conversation and words are appropriating. Don’t be cussing from the pulpit or in church (something which I’ve never heard Mark Driscoll do yet so many claim to have “heard” him do…heard meaning heard from others or read in a Donald Miller book). Don’t be cussing around your parents. Don’t be cussing at work in a meeting. But there is nothing wrong with guys “cussing” in a locker room, as that type of situation may naturally contain different types of language that is a part of male bonding.

4 – Biblical reasons. There are many verses that are used definitively to declare that all swearing is evil and wrong and sinful. Take the salt water verse, James 3:11. Nowhere does it say that swearing is salt water, rather the passage is talking about blessing and cursing people, both actions that are done throughout the Bible, and through which we get our modern day “God bless you” and “God damn you”. James makes a great point that we should not be both blessing and cursing people but rather blessing, but Scripture is replete of times when cursing (damning) is the proper thing to do! Heck (excuse my language), Jesus did it, and He was sinless. (This James passage is interesting because it’s another one of those passages that can be “plainly read” multiple ways.)

5 – Swear words are often necessary to get a point across. This here is the point where someone says “well why couldn’t you have just used the word that is the definition of the word you just said?” As if the point is to avoid at all costs that forbidden word, which is not the point at all. Some words have no meanings. Other have huge meanings. My classic example:

Jesus, Jesus help me
I’m alone in this world
And a fucked up world it is too
Tell me, tell me the story
The one about eternity
And the way it’s all gonna be

Wake up, wake up dead man
Wake up, wake up dead man

So many got up in arms when U2 and Bono wrote the song “Wake Up Dead Man”. Don’t see why. It’s a modern day prayer. It’s a song that declares at its basis “Maranatha! Come Lord Jesus and rescue us!”. And it’s brutally honest, another reason many don’t like profanity, because profanity tends to come out when honesty and passion does. This world is pretty fucked up! We’ve known that since Satan tricked Eve and Adam into eating the forbidden fruit. All of creation groans with how fucked up this world is. Christ was born in the shit and the mud of a cattle stall, all to save this fucked up world, redeem it, and glorify it! For Bono to not have used the “f-word” here would have been to rob the song of its power, its point, its testimony and witness to God, and its honesty. The greater offense, sin, would have been to censor it.

Final word. I use profanity. I use swear words. I feel they are wholly appropriate in certain moments and inappropriate in others. My conscience, obviously seared and deceived, before God on this issue is clean. I choose not to use swear words around certain people and choose to use them around certain others. When I’m alone, I sometimes use them and sometimes not, so obviously that reveals my true heart. I understand that for many Christians this is a stumbling block, and one that I don’t want to put in anyone’s way.

And a final caveat – perhaps the only reason I choose to swear is because my idols U2 does, so I want to defend them at all costs. Whatever.

Now sod off! lol

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17 Comments leave one →
  1. Grant permalink
    03/04/2011 7:18 am

    You might understand better when you have kids but i am always of the opinion that vocabulary is what suffers in most of these situations.

    I knew the whole time that you were going to U2 as well, imagine that!

  2. stuartblessman permalink*
    03/04/2011 10:11 am

    Vocabulary should definitely be taught and held to a high standard. But we shouldn’t demonize certain words. It’s like training your children up to avoid sin and live righteously, when really inside they are absolutely evil and without Jesus. It’s missing the point.

  3. Eagle permalink
    03/04/2011 10:08 pm

    Oh shit…..do we have to talk about this bs again? All the church rules can be fucking annoying… 😯

    Seriously though….Stu would you be willing to tackle the following questions and blog about them?

    1. Can a Christian be disappointed in God? Can they ever be angry at God? If not…then why? Why do Christians always attribute positive acts to God and negative acts to Satan? Why don’t they ever hold God responsible? Why don’t Christians ever get frustrated publically about God? Do they believe its a sin…and if so..is that Biblical?

    2. Can I hear your take on evil that is not the result of free will? (please elaborate, give an example)

    3. What exactly is the prosperity gospel? How would you define it? What is the difference between being blessed versus believing in the prosperity gospel?

    4. Do Christians make the Bible and idol? Do Christians worship the Bible?

    5. Do Christians take some liberties in saying that the Bible is from God and divine? I was thinking the Gospel of John starts out by saying the word became flesh (reference to Jesus) and while I am familiar with vs like 2 Timothy 3:16, Joshua 1:8-9, etc.. wouldn’t you say those versus are retrospective to those individual books? I mean (and I may be mistaken…call me on the carpet…) there really isn’t a verse in the Bible that says these 66 Books from Genesis to Revelation are divine and from God and exist in this intended format to be used in this way. Do you think Christians are mistranslating the Bible when they say that?

    6. In the Bible if it talks about generational sin, and that comes down upon people, then where does the issue of free will come in? Isn’t there a conflict there?

    7. Also in regards to Adam…why is it that Adams’ sin affects and carries down to you? Why am I or anyone held responsible for Adams’ original sin?

    8. Salvation exclusively in Christ? What then will happen to those people who never heard the gospel due to historical or geograghic limitation? Does the person who lived and died in China in 100 BC go to hell becuase he never knew Christ?

    9. God and murder or committing genocide. How can Christians worship a God who has keilled so many people? Take Exodus..you kill the first born but not Pharoah? What did an Egyptian infant do to where he deserved to be killed? Why don’t Christinas become bothered by all the attrocities that God committed?

    10. How can a loving God allow evil? Especially if he’s omnscient? So according to Christian theology…that 5 year old kid who is being molested by that Sunday school teacher…God knew all along that it was going to happen and did nothing to intervene. How can Christians respect such a God? I mean heck if you allowed a child to be molested in Minnesota and did nothing to stop it you yourself could face charges by the state. Yet Christians excuse God and let him off the hook? Why…?

    I hope these questions haven’t spooked you. I’m asking a couple of others to do this as well…

  4. stuartblessman permalink*
    03/04/2011 11:13 pm

    Sure, Eagle. But not tonight! lol

    1 – Yes, yes, it’s a complicated answer no one agrees on, some do, some do again, and maybe?
    2 – later
    3 – God wants you healthy and wealthy and that’s his sole purpose, difference is God giving you what you need and maybe not always what you want, or excess
    4 – many do, see KJV-Only group, as well as all sole/solo scriptura people
    5 – somewhat, complicated answer
    6 – generational sin is complicated as well, i dont really believe in it per some of Jesus’ comments
    7 – who said there was a real adam? lol, complicated answer again
    8 – complicated, see universalism and related fields
    9 – complicated, age old question about God, most answers require you to just accept a position or two and trust for the rest, which is hard for many to do; i’ve personally never struggled with this point, it just “is”
    10 – the easy out answer is that God didn’t allow it, man allowed it, but then you need to debate if whether or not God is morally obligated to halt all evil immediately because he has the ability; complicated again.

    Yeah, you asked all the hot issue questions. They don’t spook me at all. I’ll blog about them later. Maybe do a series.

  5. stuartblessman permalink*
    03/04/2011 11:17 pm

    Agreed on the church rules, too.

  6. Naomi permalink
    03/05/2011 10:08 am

    So essentially you seem to be saying that it’s okay to do something others consider wrong or at best questionable to do something you feel is right?

    What about the “clear” teaching in these verese?
    Ephesians 4:29-31, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking be put away from you with all malice.”
    Romans 14:13, 16&21, “Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way. Let not then your good be evil spoken of. It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.”
    Romans 15:1&2, “We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let us every one please his neighbour for his good to edification.”
    1 Corinthians 8:9, “But take heed lest this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to them that are weak.”
    2 Thessalonians 2:17, “Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.”

    The teaching in those verses is very precise. Don’t use corrupt words. What are corrupt words? Words that express bitterness, anger, or are argumentative — which I believe is a very good definition of a swear word. Use words that will build up others. And if for some reason you still do not think that swear words are bad because your favorite musician uses them then keep the other verses in mind. Do not let your presumed freedom to use that kind of language offend others. It is a matter of selflessness at this point for you who is the more “mature” Christian. God through the Bible requires you to put the good of others and the feelings of others before your own. Therefore, if most Christians think that using certain words is offensive, then quite simply be an adult about it and don’t do it for their sake. When an adult walks with a child, who is the one who should adjust their pace for the good of both? The adult of course. As the child grows and learns this sacrifice on the part of the adult becomes less necessary until the child has become an adult as well.

    There are a few points I want to make in reference to your argument, several of which deal with a misunderstanding of the Bible verses stated and their application.

    1) Let me say that your first point is valid, but something needs to be clarified. The verse you were referring to is 1 Samuel 16:7, “But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.” The meaning of this verse is commonly turned on its head, just as you have used it. It is not a situation of man seeing something bad and God seeing something good, but instead is vice versa. In context of the story of the annointing of David as king what the verse is clearly saying is that what man sees and approves of is based on the outward appearance, but God disapproves of man based on what he finds in the heart. This is a very important difference in point of view since everybody knows that people put on appearances to look better than they actually are, NOT the other way around.

    2) The application of Ephesians 4:29-31 and the verses cited previously from Romans make it clear that using the Lord’s Name in vain is not the only form of unacceptable language. Words change meanings, yes that is true, but neither of the example words you used have changed to the extent that you are claiming. Both of them are still gross insults and their “positive” uses are more likely an example of Isaiah 5:20 when it speaks of “calling evil good.” Words that have genuinely changed from being an insult to a compliment or have completely changed meanings to something unrelated are words like “nice” and “awfully” and “gay.” Word etymology is a fascinating subject. Also, remember that if something is insulting to someone but not to you, it is YOUR responsibility to be the “bigger” person and control yourself.

    3) There is a time and a season to everything, however, that verse is not referring to your subject matter (See the context Ecclesiastes 3:1-10). 1 Corinthians 10:31, “Whether therfore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the Glory of God.” Despite your claim, how can a person swear “to the glory of God”? With the plethora of succint words readily available in the English tongue, why is it necessary to adhere to the limited vocabulary of words that are insulting to many? I cannot state this often enough, a Christian does not live for himself and what he thinks is acceptable; he lives for the glory of God and the edifying of those around him.

    4) You seem to “get” and yet “not get” the point of the verses in James. You should review James 3:17, “But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.” Based on 1 Corinthians 8:9 is it “peaceable” to use words that may irritate or offend fellow Christians? Does using words that can offend show partiality to your preferences? Would you say that it is hypocritical to say that you are a Christian and love your brother yet use words that you know will offend him? What the verses that I and others have shared with you are “clearly” doing is setting down a principle. It is not a principle of legalism; it is a principle of selflessness, self-control and consideration. In regards to the word “damn,” when you consider what the word actually means you will understand that the only person who can damn anyone is GOD. A person can only damn himself through his rejection of Jesus as his only means of salvation; a person cannot damn anyone else. Therefore, using the word in any other setting is pointless and leads to the confusion we see expressed today.

    5) Swear words are NEVER necessary to make a point. When did Jesus or any writer in Scripture EVER use an offensive word to make a point? Jesus used extremes to make points, such as his comparison of the love we feel for our families being hatred when compared to the love we should feel for God. Proverbs 25:11, “A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.” In the Hebrew the word translated as “fitly” literally means “on his wheels” referring to a cart that is well put together. It refers to the harmony between all of the components. If a word you use is considered offensive then how can your conversation be considered “harmonious”?

    On a final note, let me voice a concept. It is better to live a life as high above reproach as possible. Yes, we are human. Yes, we are imperfect. But what is our goal as Christians? It is to be more like Christ. Did Jesus offend people with his words? No, He did not. People were offended by his teachings when they contradicted their presupposed beliefs, but He did not use offensive language. There is a difference.

    PS — If it seems that I am making a big deal about this, I am. An attitude that propogates the belief you express is one riddled with humanism — which, by the by, is not a good thing. For an interesting and convicting 50 minutes, listen to the old sermon, “Ten Shekels and a Shirt” on youtube as the speaker, Paris Reidhead, deals with the infiltration of humanism into Christian thinking. This sermon will also help you to come to a clearer understanding of my point of view.

    • stuartblessman permalink*
      03/05/2011 12:48 pm

      “So essentially you seem to be saying that it’s okay to do something others consider wrong or at best questionable to do something you feel is right?”

      Yeah, pretty much that is exactly what I’m saying, because that is what the Bible says. Our standards of right and wrong come from God, not from what others consider wrong or at best questionable. And I’m not explicitly saying it’s because I feel it is right; it’s because I’ve seen no reason to consider swearing or cursing (not profanity) as utterly and totally sinfully wrong and evil, both Biblically and through the Holy Spirit. Inappropriate at times, certainly, but not always wrong. Culture, and language, changes, so what is considered acceptable today was not acceptable 50, 100, 200 years ago.

      It’s also worth saying that there really is no such thing as a “clear teaching” from Scripture. All of church history has revolved around what the Scriptures say, who is qualified to interpret them, for what group, how they should be interpreted, what was the intent for the original audience, etc. Everything we choose to accept to believe is a product of our environments, personalities, and religious traditions. I identify as a Baptist and a Protestant, following the examples of John Calvin, Augustine, and so on. Others follow interpreters like Pelagius, Arminius, Finney, and they all interpret the Scriptures differently. Both sides claim the “clear teachings” of Scripture, and both make appeals to the Holy Spirit as the true interpreter of the text. We all choose what we want to believe by the interpretation of the Holy Spirit and our God-given reason and intellect.

      So…interesting translation, by the way, I tend to use ESV or NLT, but I’ll respond to the translation you posted, although I think some of the verses aren’t translated correctly…

      Eph 4:29-31 – I alluded to this in my original blog post. It’s not the words that are the corrupting talk. It’s the spirit behind them. If I joking call my friend a “son of a bitch”, I’m edifying and not corrupting, as I obviously don’t consider him that (nor am I in that moment lying). Men speak differently to each other.

      Rom 14, et al – You missed cutting and pasting in the context, but no matter. The point of this passage is not that we should absolutely forever abstain from doing anything that might cause someone else to stumble, otherwise Paul wouldn’t have wanted us to not let what we consider good to be spoken of as evil. We also need to be wary of professional weaker brethren who make everything a law and require everyone else to never do what they are too weak to do.

      Rom 15 – And the strong are to help the weak become stronger. That may take time. The strong should encourage the weak to especially not choose to remain weak, remain comfortable in their weakness, but to grow. I realize that is scary for many.

      1 Cor. 8 – Take heed, indeed. I addressed this in my blog post.

      2 Thess 2 – …don’t see how this fits in.

      By the way, I was making a joke about my favorite musician using swear words. I had a much stronger crisis when I heard preachers use “dumb, “stupid”, and “crap” from the pulpit, godly men whom I knew to be Christians, yet using words that my preschool teachers told me were the worse words in the world.

      I realize I’m not the most skilled writer or arguer, terrible at presenting my point of views. To that end, I’d suggest reading those links I posted in the original blog post. They are much more persuasive than I can be.

      You bring up my point again with quoting that verse in James. What is peaceable to one is not peaceable to another. If you have ever spend much time in another country, you’ll quickly learn that what we consider bad words are not bad words there, and what we consider good words are not good words there. Try giving a thumbs up in Mexico, for instance. Means a whole other thing. So are missionaries sinning when they do those things before they realize the differences? Hardly.

      Swear words are sometimes necesssary to make a point. Jesus used idioms of his day that were extremely similar to calling someone an a-hole or whatever. Paul used the word for shit, a perfectly fine word to label excrement. There are quite a few instances in Scripture where a speaker or writer used a word that would be forbidden to our white american christianized ears.

      It is better to live a life as high above reproach as possible. Yes, that is exactly what the Pharisees did. I’d suggest living life in light of scripture, the holy spirit, and love for each other. Christ offended people with his words, but I can see how many can get confused on this point; he didn’t offend people for the sake of offending them by using a certain word. He wasn’t throwing “f-bombs” to get a reaction; he used his words to compose his teachings which offended people. There is a lot of subtle play between Jesus and the Pharisees that would shock us today.

      I’m sorry you consider me riddled with humanism. I’m a fundamentalist and a modernist, although with a hint or two of post-modernism, as most of my generation have. And I’ve heard that sermon before; wasn’t impressed or persuaded, but I don’t deny many have been impacted by it. I don’t view Paris Reidhead as an authority, and I know that under close scrutiny, his biases and backgrounds would become apparent.

      I realize there is no argument I can make that can convince most people, and anything I do say most others have developed their own carefully constructed arguments against, so ultimately we are at an impasse.

      Thanks for putting together these proof texts, Naomi, and for taking the time to correct a fellow servant of Christ. I’m glad we can have this polite conversation between brothers and sisters.

      For more info – http://bible.org/article/toward-evangelical-theology-cussing

    • stuartblessman permalink*
      03/05/2011 7:28 pm

      My final take on the subject –

      In light of this introductory discussion toward an evangelical theology of cussing (practical kakalogology), we must conclude with the NT that the utterance of a cuss word in and of itself is neutral (Rom 14:14), that there is nothing inherently sinful about a particular verbal symbol. Rather, its filthiness or appropriateness is derived from its referent and significance. Paul demonstrates this in his use of “crap” in Philippians 3:8, where the symbol skuvbalon (skubalon), has a metaphorical referent of his former religious practices, with the significance that these practices are worthless.

    • Eagle permalink
      03/06/2011 2:51 am

      In the spirit of this post Grant…let me tell you one of the stories I heard told by my Bible study leader in the “fundegelical” church I was involved in…it was pretty fucked up (literally!!!) Its was also in my pre-agnostic days when I was drinking the fundementalist Koolaide in a way that would have put Jim Jones to shame!! 😯

      But first your quote…

      “There is a time and a season to everything, however, that verse is not referring to your subject matter (See the context Ecclesiastes 3:1-10). 1 Corinthians 10:31, “Whether therfore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the Glory of God.” Despite your claim, how can a person swear “to the glory of God”?

      Back in 2007 I was helping my Bible study leader move. He was engaged and planning his wedding, and he told me and several other people this story which greatly shook him up and troubled me at the time, but today I look at it as being too freaky. My Bible study leader played in an orchestra of a mega church. Anyhow over a coke he told me that the leader of a mega church orchestra pulled aside my Bible study leader and had a discussion with him about how to have sex for the glory of God… (No I’m not bullshitting….) . This orchestra leader told him to pray over when, where and how to have sex. Pray about each sexual position, etc.. It’s pretty fucked up teaching and today as I look back on it it demonstrates how screwed up evangelicals can be and how they can twist and distort the Bible to the same degree that Mormons and other cults do. There are many ministries and parts of modern evangelicalism that are cult like. I saw the parralels having been involved in “fundegelical” churches/parachurch ministries, etc.. for 10 years and Mormonism for 2.

      Fun times…I had enough brainwashing thank you!!

      • stuartblessman permalink*
        03/06/2011 1:05 pm

        It’s sad, Eagle, but some fundegelicals do do that about everything. Don’t forget to also pray about what you should eat every day, and while you are at it, let go of the steering wheel and pray God directs you to your location. I’ve heard them all.

        Can’t make the claim that I’m an agnostic yet, but when it comes to the more extreme and zealous forms of Christianity, I am definitely an agnostic.

  7. Grant permalink
    03/05/2011 2:47 pm

    In fact, as Naomi was saying, Jesus pointed out three curse words of his time and showed the dangers of using this type of language. Again, are our vocabularies so challenged people?

    To save time and endless argument, one might want to consider the fact that it is not what comes out of a man that defiles them, but what is coming from the heart. To balance this, out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks and we are held accountable for even every idle word. This shows that although we tend to overlook the words we use, I don’t think God does.

    Let’s let the Holy Spirit help us through this and abide by the clear warnings in scripture to help along the way.

    Appreciate you bringing it up Stu, but I think you are a bit off in your simple condoning of most curse words that are obviously seen as vulgar today.

    • stuartblessman permalink*
      03/05/2011 7:12 pm

      Let’s let the Holy Spirit help us through this and abide by the clear warnings in scripture to help along the way.

      Agreed! And thank you both for taking the time to correct me. I’m not so arrogant as to think I know it all or could be wrong.

      See you soon, Grant!

  8. Eagle permalink
    03/06/2011 12:27 am

    @ Grant….

    The HOLY SPIRIT!!!! I just love how the Holy Spirit has guided Christians in the past. Through the Holy Spirit and the interpretation of scripture it was argued that women don’t deserve the right to vote. Through the Holy Spirit is was argued that segregation is Biblical and that black people have their places in society and on the bus. Through the Holy Spirit’s guidance many Christians always felt the need to “attack” others outside their little bubble becuase of this “us” vs “them” complex. History is littered with examples of what Christians have done becuase they were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Hell…I bet some of the Pharises who clobbered me and affected my career, something I was trying to do for God, etc.. did what they did becuase they were guided by the Holy Spirit.

    Good post Stu…. 😀

    • Grant permalink
      03/06/2011 1:42 am

      Eagle, sorry you focus on negatives that have NOTHING to do with the Holy Spirit (the One who inspires the Word). I don’t see anything int he Word that treats any of the people you mentioned poorly but rather builds the foundation for their freedom and liberty in society.

      The Holy Spirit’s job is to destroy the us vs. them complex and make it about God’s opinion, not man’s. There is a certain amount of wrestling involved, but most of it is VERY clear.

      Stu, I do look forward to seeing you at the wedding. Stu2 back on the board…awww yeah!

      • Eagle permalink
        03/06/2011 2:59 am

        “Eagle, sorry you focus on negatives that have NOTHING to do with the Holy Spirit (the One who inspires the Word). I don’t see anything int he Word that treats any of the people you mentioned poorly but rather builds the foundation for their freedom and liberty in society.”

        Wow…I guess the largest fundegelical movement the Southern Baptists must have made a mistake by accident when they defended segregation and criticized the civil rights movement. Oh shucks…I wonder how many fundegelicals explained the fact that while Martin Luther King sat in a jail in Birmingham, its was the Southern Baptists among others who led in sharp criticism of MLK. (Where was John MacArthur when you need him!?! Someone needs to tell those blacks to follow Romans 13 and follow segregation laws!!!!) 😯

        But to respond Grant “fundegelicals” in history and even today have done awful, wicked things under the Holy Spirit. The world has been brought a lot of pain and torment due to Christinaity and the Holy Spirit. It doesn’t need anymore…

        Have a good night!!!

      • stuartblessman permalink*
        03/06/2011 1:12 pm

        One time only reunion gig. Technically Cole hasn’t given me the go ahead…

  9. Grant permalink
    03/06/2011 3:48 pm

    final clarification eagle…You are getting man’s wickedness and selfishness confused with the Holy Spirit. Don’t be duped by masks. The fruit of the spirit is clear. Your enemy is not the holy Spirit but sin crouching at your door and mine. It is through the Holy Spirit that you can learn to master it and bring about the fruit of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, self-control, gentleness, faithfulness.

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